California Heat Wave

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2KjAiCL1HQ

93 San Francisco
114 Fairfield
114 Elk Grove
114 Sacramento
110 Stockton
105 Modesto

Gosh Darn Tommy!!!!!!! Its hotter than hell out in California. Still believe global warming is false? Seems to be happening in your neighborhood. Bicycling content: must be difficult to ride in this sweltering heat.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Greetings from hell. 6PM PDT in Ben Lomond, CA and my outdoor
temperature is 93F (33.9C) and 16% humidity on my weather station.
Highest here was 102F (38.9C). NWS weather forecast is more of the
same for about 5 days:
<https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-122.09304015350371&lat=37.08133745279595#.YxabF7TMJaQ>

So far, we're surviving, but there's a potential problem on the left
coast with the lack of electricity needed to run the air conditioners.
<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx>
Notice there are various alerts in progress. Yesterday, PG&E or SCE
might have done some load shedding to reduce the demand.
I expect we will again run the "Current Reserves" to zero tonight.
Forecast peak demands will be at 7:45PM PDT. If I disappear, you can
guess what happened.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I think tommy should prove us all wrong and prove the slime-stream media is lying about the weather by going on a metric milage bike ride in the hills with only a regular sized bottle. He should make sure his bike has the special campy non-stretch cables, the custom-made derailleur arm, and whatever weird sized clamp he thinks his handlebars need.

[William Crowell]

My son, age 30, and his buddy, who are both pretty decent riders and big fans of Felt bicycles, did our local "short snort" ride (about 12 miles but quite a bit of climbing) yesterday when it was 110. I asked them if they had any moments during the ride where they felt hyperthermic, or thought maybe it might have been a mistake to do the ride in such hot weather, but they denied it. They did carry a lot of water, and I noticed how they hosed themselves down immediately after they returned to my place. I think I used to be able to do that kind of thing, but I surely can't anymore.

[William Crowell]

Then there's the winter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N2CblIavxRwIIf_eYvQLwEKIHRGELiro/view?usp=sharing

“To me, it doesn’t matter whether it’s raining or the sun is shining or whatever: as long as I’m riding a bike I know I’m the luckiest guy in the world.” - Mark Cavendish.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 2:51:45 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> My son, age 30, and his buddy, who are both pretty decent riders and big fans of Felt bicycles, did our local "short snort" ride (about 12 miles but quite a bit of climbing) yesterday when it was 110. I asked them if they had any moments during the ride where they felt hyperthermic, or thought maybe it might have been a mistake to do the ride in such hot weather, but they denied it. They did carry a lot of water, and I noticed how they hosed themselves down immediately after they returned to my place. I think I used to be able to do that kind of thing, but I surely can't anymore.

If you look at the climate change garbage from the media and NOAA and NASA the thing that pops out at you is that they start in 1960 and almost ALL of them misrepresent the heat of the 70's.

The 1930;s were easily the hottest years on record and this was world wide. The pretense is that the Dust Bowl never occurred.

Today we have the media telling us that a single week of hot weather is proof of climate change when it is no such thing. https://jermwarfare.com/podcast/tony-heller

Don't you think it's time that stupid people stop telling us about things they know nothing about?

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 5:51:45 AM UTC-4, William Crowell wrote:
> My son, age 30, and his buddy, who are both pretty decent riders and big fans of Felt bicycles, did our local "short snort" ride (about 12 miles but quite a bit of climbing) yesterday when it was 110. I asked them if they had any moments during the ride where they felt hyperthermic, or thought maybe it might have been a mistake to do the ride in such hot weather, but they denied it. They did carry a lot of water, and I noticed how they hosed themselves down immediately after they returned to my place. I think I used to be able to do that kind of thing, but I surely can't anymore.

I've done touring out west in high heat, with some riding over 110 degrees. To me, it's no fun at all.

But I note that Jeff's weather station was recording 16% humidity. That would be unheard of in Ohio.
Back when I used to visit Portland frequently, I eventually figured out that when scorching heat
hits there, it's typically a very dry air mass from the desert. When scorching heat arrives here,
it's absolutely sodden with humidity from the Gulf states.

This makes a big difference in personal cooling, and in preventing dehydration. Evaporative cooling
just doesn't work well with high humidity.

Drivel: On my first extended trip out west in 1970, my friend and I encountered cars with cylindrical
evaporative air conditioners hanging out their windows. As newly graduated engineers, we were pretty
interested. We'd never seen such a thing back east, doubtlessly because they would have worked
poorly if they worked at all. And we soon realized we could keep our butter from melting by just covering its container with a moist rag.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:27:23 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Don't you think it's time that stupid people stop telling us about things they know nothing about?

Absolutely! But there goes that irony meter again! :-)

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Ahh, the wisdom of The Ancients:

https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_putting_a_cloth_over_a_canteen_help_it_stay_cool

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2022 08:30:05 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>But I note that Jeff's weather station was recording 16% humidity.

My number is probably wrong. It really was showing 16% yesterday.
However, my neighbors much more accurate WeatherFlow Tempest weather
station was showing RH around 34% yesterday afternoon.

Neighbor's wx station:
<https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KCABENLO56/table/2022-09-6/2022-09-6/daily>
<https://tempestwx.com/station/76665/> (forecast page)
<https://tempestwx.com/station/76665/grid>
<https://weatherflow.com/tempest-weather-system/>
History graph of RH for last few days:
<https://tempestwx.com/station/76665/graph/204700/humidity/4>

My desktop weather stations is much cheaper. Acurite 00384HD.
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Digital-Color-Display-Wireless-Indoor-Outdoor-Thermometer-00384HD/311697358>

I suspect there's something wrong with the wireless outdoor sensor.
Right now, it's reporting 45%, which is a more typical number. I
should have done a sanity check but forgot.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 11:51:08 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Ahh, the wisdom of The Ancients:
>https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_putting_a_cloth_over_a_canteen_help_it_stay_cool

Instead of a water bottle, I carry a water bottle with a spray nozzle.
When I get hot, I spray a fine mist over my head. The fine mist
evaporates quickly and seems to provide faster cooling effect. If I
need some water to drink, I just unscrew the spray nozzle cap.
Something like these:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fine+mist+clear+plastic+spray+bottle&tbm=isch>

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 1:17:46 PM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 11:51:08 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >Ahh, the wisdom of The Ancients:
> >https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_putting_a_cloth_over_a_canteen_help_it_stay_cool
> Instead of a water bottle, I carry a water bottle with a spray nozzle.
> When I get hot, I spray a fine mist over my head. The fine mist
> evaporates quickly and seems to provide faster cooling effect. If I
> need some water to drink, I just unscrew the spray nozzle cap.
> Something like these:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=fine+mist+clear+plastic+spray+bottle&tbm=isch>

It may have been the last time we were out west, when we visited a Hopi reservation, that we
bought a "Cool Blast" bottle by "Misty Mate." It's a heavy walled bottle with a pump handle, almost
as if you spliced a bike mini pump into a tall bike water bottle. It feeds a ~2 foot hose with a valve
and mist nozzle. The entire package rides in a nylon bag with a shoulder strap. Pump it up
and open the valve, and a very fine water spray does a nice job of cooling you if you're out west.
Back east, it doesn't work nearly as well.

- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:27:23 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes tom, we've been telling you that for years: you're stupid, please stop.

[Tom Kunich]

This is what is happening when I lift the lid off of a hot cup of coffee. The state change of the coffee from liquid to vapor carries away the heat. This goes on until the heat of the coffee is low enough to be drinkable and you drink it or the heat transfer changes from state change to conduction to the cooler air around it and cools to room temperature.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 10:17:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 11:51:08 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Ahh, the wisdom of The Ancients:
>>https://www.answers.com/Q/Why_does_putting_a_cloth_over_a_canteen_help_it_stay_cool
>
>Instead of a water bottle, I carry a water bottle with a spray nozzle.
>When I get hot, I spray a fine mist over my head. The fine mist
>evaporates quickly and seems to provide faster cooling effect. If I
>need some water to drink, I just unscrew the spray nozzle cap.
>Something like these:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=fine+mist+clear+plastic+spray+bottle&tbm=isch>

That wouldn't work for me riding in florida's 90+ temp at 70+
humidity. I'll drink four 24 oz bottles of water on my regular 40 mile
rides and I'll still lose 4 or 5 llbs until I re-hydrate. I don't add
any liquid for evaperative body cooling. I am sweating a gallon and a
half most if which is going to evaporate and keep me cool(er)

[John B.]

Often refereed to as "shooting oneself in the foot" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Wow. It's great that you can do that. I don't recall ever sweating
that much when I was in much better shape. (I'm now 74 years
ancient). I visited Coral Gables long ago for a job interview. I
could barely handle the heat and high humidity. Fortunately, I didn't
get the job. I do better when it's cold. Most of my exercise is
either hiking and firewood cutting, hauling, and splitting, which are
much easier thank cycling. Using the spray bottle works fine for
those activities. For long rides in high temp/RH weather, hydration
accessories are probably a better idea.

In my area (left coast of California), the humidity is much lower.
This is the log file from my neighbors nifty weather stations:
<https://tempestwx.com/station/76665/graph/204700/humidity/4>
Try moving the horizontal scroll bar to see further back in time.
During the current heat wave, the daytime average RH seems to be about
35%, which is quite comfortable. Scrolling back to before the heat
wave, RH varies from 50 - 100% and averaging 75%. After midnight to
early morning, the humidity might climb to almost 100%, but because
the corresponding temperatures are lower at those times, it's not a
problem.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 10:27:23 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 2:51:45 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> > My son, age 30, and his buddy, who are both pretty decent riders and big fans of Felt bicycles, did our local "short snort" ride (about 12 miles but quite a bit of climbing) yesterday when it was 110. I asked them if they had any moments during the ride where they felt hyperthermic, or thought maybe it might have been a mistake to do the ride in such hot weather, but they denied it. They did carry a lot of water, and I noticed how they hosed themselves down immediately after they returned to my place. I think I used to be able to do that kind of thing, but I surely can't anymore.
> If you look at the climate change garbage from the media and NOAA and NASA the thing that pops out at you is that they start in 1960 and almost ALL of them misrepresent the heat of the 70's.
>
> The 1930;s were easily the hottest years on record and this was world wide. The pretense is that the Dust Bowl never occurred.

Tommy the liar again.
https://www.almanac.com/extra/hottest-decade-record
"16 Warmest Years (1880-2015)
The following table lists the global combined land and ocean annually-averaged temperature rank and anomaly for each of the 16 (two tied at #15) warmest years on record."
If you go to the above link and scroll down to the first table, you will see it listing the hottest years. All, except one, were in the 2000s. Other was 1998. And Tommy, the history measured is 1880-2015. So that includes the 1930s. Just in case you did not realize that. 1930 was after 1880.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-13/climate-change-made-the-last-eight-years-the-hottest-on-record#:~:text=The%202010s%20were%20by%20far,prior%20one%20since%20the%201960s.
"The last eight years were the hottest in global records that date to 1880, with 2021 ranking as the sixth-hottest year, according to analyses of global weather station and ocean measurements released Thursday by NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies and the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Last year’s global average temperature was a bit more than 1° Celsius higher than the 1880-1900 average."
"The 2010s were by far the hottest decade on record. Every decade has averaged hotter than the prior one since the 1960s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_North_American_heat_wave#:~:text=The%201930s%20(the%20Dust%20Bowl,in%20the%20Americas%20in%20centuries.
"Summer 1936 still remains the warmest summer on record in the USA (since official records begin in 1895). However February 1936 was the coldest February on record, and 5 of the 12 months were below average, leaving the full year 1936 at just above the average."
"The 1930s (the Dust Bowl years) are remembered as the driest and warmest decade for the United States, and the summer of 1936 featured the most widespread and destructive heat wave to occur in the Americas in centuries."
Note, the above sentence says "are remembered as the driest and warmest decade for the United States". Remembered. Not measured, fact based. Remembered. And while it may have been dry and warm in the USA, that does not tell us what the rest of the world was experiencing. Was the weather in Europe and Asia and Africa and South America normal temperature and precipitation? Also, keep in mind the US and most of the rest of the world were experiencing a recession, depression, during the 1930s. So I suspect the bad weather was amplified in their minds. If you are hungry and unemployed, then temps in the 60s feel like a blizzard and a drizzle is just like a hurricane.

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/monitoring/monthly-report/national/202207
"July Temperature
The contiguous U.S. average temperature during July was 76.4°F, 2.8°F above the 20th century average, ranking third warmest in the 128-year record.
Generally, temperatures were above average and/or record-warm across nearly all of the Lower 48.
Texas experienced its warmest July, May-July and April-July on record."

>
> Today we have the media telling us that a single week of hot weather is proof of climate change when it is no such thing. https://jermwarfare.com/podcast/tony-heller
>

Tommy, go up to my posting about the 1930s and Dust Bowl from Wikipedia. 1936 was remembered as being driest and warmest. But just a couple summer months were like that. 5 of 12 months that year were below average. And February 1936 was record cold. On average for the whole year of 1936, it was just an average year. Despite having a few dry and warm summer months. So this disproves your single week of hot weather argument. If you look at yearly totals and averages, 2022 will be one of the driest and warmest overall.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2022 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Today we have the media telling us that a single week of
>hot weather is proof of climate change when it is
>no such thing. https://jermwarfare.com/podcast/tony-heller

Please fine a better source. In the past, you preferred authoritative
opinions from recognized experts. So, what changed your preference?

"Steven Goddard (Tony Heller)"
<https://www.desmog.com/steven-goddard/>

>Don't you think it's time that stupid people stop telling us about things they know nothing about?

I agree. When do you plan to stop?
(Sorry, but that was far too tempting to ignore).

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 16:46:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Five years ago I was riding 70 miles twice a week and I still have all
of my 6 water bottle cages on the Catrike. Now, a few weeks away from
78 years old, I struggle with 40 miles and my average speed has
dropped from around 17 MPH to 13 MPH. Of course my rides are in
Florida and don't involve any serious climbing, but they usually
involve heat. My bike computer said it got to 97 last Tuesday. I ride
almost exclusively on bike trails and it seems to register a bit
hotter on the asphault.

[Tom Kunich]

In the last 12 months I have only done about 4500 miles but I have also climbed 118,000 feet. So I've traded speed and distance for climbing.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2022 05:00:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>Five years ago I was riding 70 miles twice a week and I still have all
>of my 6 water bottle cages on the Catrike. Now, a few weeks away from
>78 years old, I struggle with 40 miles and my average speed has
>dropped from around 17 MPH to 13 MPH.

That's still quite impressive. I've been struggling with diminishing
stamina and strength since about 2001, when the family curse of
cardiovascular problems first arrived. Basically, the lack of
sufficient blood flow, and therefore the lack of oxygen, limits what I
can do. It doesn't seem to matter what I do to improve stamina and
strength, the lack of available oxygen puts an upper limit on what I
can do. Predictably, as I accumulate additional maladies, injuries,
and wear-n-tear, my strength and stamina continue to decrease. Since
I haven't ridden anything beyond various exercise machines, I have no
idea what my distance and speed would be on a bicycle. Fortunately, I
can still walk and hike. Some Strava (hiking) logs:
<https://www.strava.com/athletes/103870441>
2.5 miles and 483 ft elevation doesn't sound like much, but it's the
best I can do. If you're worried about your losses in distances and
speed, think about how much better you're doing than me.

>Of course my rides are in
>Florida and don't involve any serious climbing, but they usually
>involve heat. My bike computer said it got to 97 last Tuesday. I ride
>almost exclusively on bike trails and it seems to register a bit
>hotter on the asphault.

We've been having a heat wave for the last 2 weeks. No hikes until it
cools down. I do very badly in the heat. Prediction for today is
102F and about 35% average RH.
<https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?w0=t&w3u=1&w6=rh&w11u=1&w12u=1&AheadHour=0&Submit=Submit&FcstType=graphical&textField1=37.0813&textField2=-122.093&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw=>

Yes. It's hotter on asphalt than concrete. Probably more than you
want to know about albedo:

"Pavement Thermal Performance And Contribution To Urban And Global
Climate"
<https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/sustainability/articles/pavement_thermal.cfm>
"Typical albedo values range from 0.04 to 0.16 for asphalt pavements
and from 0.18 to 0.35 for concrete pavements..."
"With [asphalt] pavement albedo values around 0.10, extreme high
pavement surface temperatures of 158 to 176 °F (70 to 80 °C) have been
measured on hot summer days in mid-afternoon in Phoenix, Arizona, and
up to 158 °F (70 °C) for similar pavements in Davis, California..."

Hint: Ride on the more reflective white lane lines.

[Catrike Rider]

My Catrike alone weighs over 35 lbs. Add to that 14/15 lbs for water,
spare parts and tools, and I'm glad I don't need to climb hills.
Recumbents are nototiously bad climbing anyway because you can't get
up and stand on the pedals.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In the last 12 months I have only done about 4500 miles but I have also climbed 118,000 feet. So I've traded speed and distance for climbing.

Let's see how that works:
4500 miles / 365 days = 12.3 miles/day
At an estimated 15 miles/hr average speed, that's:
1 / 12.3 miles/day / 15 miles/hr = 1.22 hrs/day

Each ride is 12.3 miles long or:
12.3 miles * 5280 ft/mile = 65,000 ft/ride

The elevation gain per ride is:
118,000 ft / 365 days = 323 ft elevation gain per ride.

Therefore, the average slope would is:
323 / 65,000 * 100% = 0.497% slope.
or
arctan(323 ft / 65,000 ft) = arctan(0.00497) = 0.285 degrees

Congratulations. Your numbers pass my sanity check and appear to be
quite probable. However, I don't think a 0.28 degree average slope
constitutes much of feat in climbing. I calculated the average slope
of 10 random SF Bay area rides, from a month ago, which I found on
Strava. The idea was to avoid any rides in the current heat wave.
Most were in the 1 degree slope region. Nicely done, but hardly
exceptional.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 10:32:18 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In the last 12 months I have only done about 4500 miles but I have also climbed 118,000 feet. So I've traded speed and distance for climbing.
> Let's see how that works:
> 4500 miles / 365 days = 12.3 miles/day
> At an estimated 15 miles/hr average speed, that's:
> 1 / 12.3 miles/day / 15 miles/hr = 1.22 hrs/day
>
> Each ride is 12.3 miles long or:
> 12.3 miles * 5280 ft/mile = 65,000 ft/ride
>
> The elevation gain per ride is:
> 118,000 ft / 365 days = 323 ft elevation gain per ride.
>
> Therefore, the average slope would is:
> 323 / 65,000 * 100% = 0.497% slope.
> or
> arctan(323 ft / 65,000 ft) = arctan(0.00497) = 0.285 degrees

Jeff, the way you calculated the slope, climb, is for every single mile. So every mile ridden is 0.285 degrees. Always riding uphill. Slight uphill, but still up. That sounds kind of like the old tales of walking 5 miles to school uphill and against a headwind. And walking home from school 5 miles uphill and against a headwind. Now it is possible to have a headwind going to and from school. But I don't think it can be uphill both directions.

Now I am ignoring the fact we are talking about Tommy. I'm sure in his mind he is always riding uphill or into a headwind to prove how tough he is. Even if he rides back home on every ride. Its uphill all the way for Tommy. Somehow.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 23:03:00 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 10:32:18 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >In the last 12 months I have only done about 4500 miles but I have also climbed 118,000 feet. So I've traded speed and distance for climbing.

>> Let's see how that works:
>> 4500 miles / 365 days = 12.3 miles/day
>> At an estimated 15 miles/hr average speed, that's:
>> 1 / 12.3 miles/day / 15 miles/hr = 1.22 hrs/day
>>
>> Each ride is 12.3 miles long or:
>> 12.3 miles * 5280 ft/mile = 65,000 ft/ride
>>
>> The elevation gain per ride is:
>> 118,000 ft / 365 days = 323 ft elevation gain per ride.
>>
>> Therefore, the average slope would is:
>> 323 / 65,000 * 100% = 0.497% slope.
>> or
>> arctan(323 ft / 65,000 ft) = arctan(0.00497) = 0.285 degrees

>Jeff, the way you calculated the slope, climb, is for every single mile. So every mile ridden is 0.285 degrees. Always riding uphill. Slight uphill, but still up. That sounds kind of like the old tales of walking 5 miles to school uphill and against a headwind. And walking home from school 5 miles uphill and against a headwind. Now it is possible to have a headwind going to and from school. But I don't think it can be uphill both directions.

I didn't have much choice in how I calculated the slope and average
angle. The only numbers I had to work with were the calculated length
of the daily ride (65,000 ft) and the total elevation gain (323) ft
along the route. I did not have any data for dealing with any
intermediate changes in slope. The only parts of the ride that count
for climbing are the uphill segments. Flat and downhill require much
less effort. Therefore, the total elevation gain is simply the sum of
only the uphill segments. The flat and downhill segments can be
ignored. Presumably, an all uphill ride up a long ramp, at the
calculated average slope, would require the same effort as a roller
coaster style ride with the same elevation gain as the ramp.

<https://www.reddit.com/r/Strava/comments/bge407/running_how_does_strava_calculate_elevation_gain/>
"Elevation gain is the elevation _gained_. It does not count any
downhills, so it's only counting when you're running uphill."

>Now I am ignoring the fact we are talking about Tommy. I'm sure in his mind he is always riding uphill or into a headwind to prove how tough he is. Even if he rides back home on every ride. Its uphill all the way for Tommy. Somehow.

You may have missed my camouflaged point. Tom actually did something
right. The two numbers, distance and altitude gain seem to be real,
within acceptable error limits and probably not contrived for the
occasion. However, I am a little disappointed with the sub-par slope.
Even so, this is a step in the right direction by Tom.

>> Congratulations. Your numbers pass my sanity check and appear to be
>> quite probable. However, I don't think a 0.28 degree average slope
>> constitutes much of feat in climbing. I calculated the average slope
>> of 10 random SF Bay area rides, from a month ago, which I found on
>> Strava. The idea was to avoid any rides in the current heat wave.
>> Most were in the 1 degree slope region. Nicely done, but hardly
>> exceptional.

It's midnight. Some things are best done under cover of darkness.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 3:12:04 AM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I didn't have much choice in how I calculated the slope and average
> angle. The only numbers I had to work with were the calculated length
> of the daily ride (65,000 ft) and the total elevation gain (323) ft
> along the route. I did not have any data for dealing with any
> intermediate changes in slope. The only parts of the ride that count
> for climbing are the uphill segments. Flat and downhill require much
> less effort. Therefore, the total elevation gain is simply the sum of
> only the uphill segments. The flat and downhill segments can be
> ignored. Presumably, an all uphill ride up a long ramp, at the
> calculated average slope, would require the same effort as a roller
> coaster style ride with the same elevation gain as the ramp.
>
> <https://www.reddit.com/r/Strava/comments/bge407/running_how_does_strava_calculate_elevation_gain/>
> "Elevation gain is the elevation _gained_. It does not count any
> downhills, so it's only counting when you're running uphill."

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I don't recall any definitive solutions:

What's the best metric for "hilliness" of a ride? I first thought about this decades
ago. I was a club officer back at a time when our club's calendar was full of unique
rides. That is, members would put effort into finding new, interesting routes. The
rides would be listed in the club calendar with brief descriptions of distance, pace
and terrain - usually "flat" or "rolling" or "hilly".

But is there a consistent way to rate hilliness? A Rocky Mountain climb may involve
30 miles of 3% grade, so maybe 5000 feet of climbing. That's easy. A Western PA ride
may involve 100 climbs of 50 feet, each one hitting 10% gradient. That's murderous.

I've briefly pondered the RMS scale used to measure surface roughness of machined
parts, but haven't thought deeply about how - or whether - it might apply. And BTW, I'm
not a Strava or Garmin guy, so maybe there's a solution I don't know about.

Is there a widely respected metric for hilliness? If so, what is it? Is it possible to implement
one without a Garmin?

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I see the stupid six have started another lame conversation about a one week heat wave. In September of 1913 the entire nation was locked in a heat wave that set every record in the United States including the hottest temperatures ever recorded on the planet of 132 degrees in Death Valley. Imagine some lame brained accountant pretending that he even knows how to look things up when the hottest temperature ever recorded in Berkeley was set and at THAT time Berkeley was surrounded by the cooling shroud of Redwood groves.

Why would you suppose the stupid six love to pretend knowledge of something when they repeat outright lies from the government under the Democrats?

[John B.]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 8:17:07 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>> Then there's the winter:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N2CblIavxRwIIf_eYvQLwEKIHRGELiro/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> “To me, it doesn’t matter whether it’s raining or the sun is shining or whatever: as long as I’m riding a bike I know I’m the luckiest guy in the world.” - Mark Cavendish.

> I see the stupid six have started another lame conversation about a one week rheat wave. In September of 1913 the entire nation was locked in a heat wave that set every record in the United States including the hottest temperatures ever recorded on the planet of 132 degrees in Death Valley. Imagine some lame brained accountant pretending that he even knows how to look things up when the hottest temperature ever recorded in Berkeley was set and at THAT time Berkeley was surrounded by the cooling shroud of Redwood groves.

>
>Why would you suppose the stupid six love to pretend knowledge of something when they repeat outright lies from the government under the Democrats?

Well old Tommy gets it wrong again....
The hottest month in U.S. history was .... wait for it Tommy...

this past July was the hottest month in the recorded history of the
lower 48 states. The highest recorded average temperature notched
since the government started keeping records in 1895.
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/hottest-month-united-states-history-numbers/
and
But when it comes to surface temperature, two spots have Death Valley
beat. A new analysis of high-resolution satellite data finds the Lut
Desert in Iran and the Sonoran Desert along the Mexican-U.S. border
have recently reached a sizzling 80.8°C (177.4°F).
https://www.science.org/content/article/move-over-death-valley-these-are-two-hottest-spots-earth
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I think you're trying to solve the wrong problem. Using a bicycle as
a precision measuring instrument of surface roughness would be
interesting, but not really necessary. While it would nice to compare
the relative difficulty of various rides using something more
interesting than just a crude slope estimate, it would be useless
unless we included all the myriad of other variables. Hauling a
bicycle wheel behind and automobile and measuring as many road surface
parameters as possible might give a suitable metric for road
"difficulty". However, that would change immediately after the first
rain, resurfacing, oil spill, change in temperature, etc. A
non-repeatable measurement tends to be rather useless.

What I think makes more sense is to measure how much energy
(watt-hours) is required to travel a given road section. The power
meters, sensors, and software are already available for graphing power
(watts) and energy (watt-hrs) output. Now, all that's needed is a way
to calibrate the sensors for a standard rider, standard bicycle, and
standard roadway. That should provide an "index of difficulty" if the
3 parameters were known. At this time, I don't have anything that
would produce such a thing, but I'm sure I can contrive something that
will give someone else a starting point towards an improved method.

So, is this the problem you're trying to solve, or did I miss the mark
by a few parsecs?

[Frank Krygowski]

The problem I have in mind is rating or comparing ride difficulties. My
initial interest was to accurately describe rides to potential club members,
but it occurs to me that if such a rating system were already widely accepted,
Tom could use it to impress us with the difficulty of his rides.

I like the idea of using Watts and Watt-hours in some way, but of course that,
like anything else, is complicated. Both are dependent on speed and weight.
If an overweight and slow person did a particular ride, his power and energy
consumption would be much different than those of a real athlete.

I'm just musing while watching TV. But this discussion is more interesting than
most of the totally off-topic things posted here.

- Frank Krygowski

[William Crowell]

If you integrate a graph of a ride's elevation vs. distance, isn't the result the amount of work done? Or am I missing something?

[Ralph Barone]

It would certainly be a complex calculation. Uphill sections should be
linearly proportional to slope up to a point, at which the rating should
start shooting skyward (a 20% slope is more than 4 times worse than a 5%
slope). Similarly you should get some credit for downhill portions, but
past a certain amount, it also becomes a liability.

[Ralph Barone]

William Crowell <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you integrate a graph of a ride's elevation vs. distance, isn't the
> result the amount of work done? Or am I missing something?
>

Aerodynamic drag. And relative effort vs actual power output.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 11:26:19 PM UTC-4, William Crowell wrote:
> If you integrate a graph of a ride's elevation vs. distance, isn't the result the amount of work done? Or am I missing something?

I think things are more complicated in at least two ways. First, work done obviously depends on
speed as well as elevation gain, not to mention other factors like total weight, aero drag, etc. You're
considering only the work against gravity.

But more fundamental regarding this problem: Gaining 1000 feet at 2% gradient constitutes
the same work against gravity as gaining 1000 feet at 20% gradient. But they are very, very
different in difficulty.

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:13:53 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

That's what I guessed you were trying to accomplish. I have a little
ancient experience with that. A former customer deals with rating
trails for handicapped access.
<https://www.beneficialdesigns.com/assessment/trails/>
<https://www.beneficialdesigns.com/assessment/trails/tools/utap/>
Basically, it's a bicycle fork and wheel, loaded with sensors,
connected to a data logger, and pushed along by a cart. The sensors
record trail characteristics, which is eventually fed to a computer
program for analysis. I don't know the capabilities of the current
device, but I suspect some of the technology could be adapted to
characterize (or model) cycling roads. It would be rather interesting
and amusing to try modeling a singletrack MTB trail.

>I like the idea of using Watts and Watt-hours in some way, but of course that,
>like anything else, is complicated. Both are dependent on speed and weight.
>If an overweight and slow person did a particular ride, his power and energy
>consumption would be much different than those of a real athlete.

I can think of some additional factors that might cause problems. What
I see is that there are so many variables in characterizing a road,
that the product of the errors and variations caused by all these
variable could result is a useless and inconsistent road rating.

The real problem I have with the idea of rating roads and trails is
the lack of a useful purpose. If we had an "index of difficulty" on
various bicycle routes, how would it be used? A single number for a
given ride tells me nothing useful. It's as bad as using the sum of
the ascents to gauge difficulty, while long flat rides as zero effort.
With a single number, it would probably be possible be possible for a
short but bumpy ride, to be equally "difficult" as a long ride on a
long flat road. So, we add numbers for road characteristics, such as
surface roughness. But roads are not homogenous and vary
substantially along their length. Do we assign a different
"difficulty" number for each mile? Anyway, I like the idea, but I
don't see any way to make it useful.

>I'm just musing while watching TV. But this discussion is more interesting than
>most of the totally off-topic things posted here.

Most of what I write in RBT is off topic. When I used to dive deep
into bicycle related topics, there was usually someone who didn't like
the idea of making measurements and doing calculations, who suggested
that I should simply build and ride such a bicycle and not bother with
the engineering. That's when I realized that in RBT, a report from a
test ride is far more convincing than detailed calculations.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank who does a 5 mile flat ride several times a week believes that I'm trying to impress him with records of my rides. I am nothing more than another rider around here and things like our Tuesday ride may draw 15 riders of which I and two others are the slowest of the group. I assume that this upsets Frank because he isn't capable any more of riding like that. I think that I saw in a previous quote that Seaton is so disturbed by this that he was looking for a map that would prove that there are no hills in the Bay Area. He must have discovered the listings since he shut up rapidly enough. I've climbed every peak in the listings including those without a road but an MTB trail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_summits_of_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area

While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California. It finally took statements from the California Fish and Game and sighting directly where I said I had watched this to shut these asses up.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California. It finally took statements from the California Fish and Game and sighting directly where I said I had watched this to shut these asses up.

California Fish and Game: Gray Wolf
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf>

Known Wolves in California
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf#la-559682741-known-wolves-in-california>

Me, on the night of the full moon (1997):
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/jeffl-wolf.gif>
<https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/werewolf.txt>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 07:56:55 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Is there a widely respected metric for hilliness? If so, what is it? Is it possible to implement
>one without a Garmin?

Strava has a crude route difficulty calculator:
<https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/8471904145677-Route-Difficulty>
<https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/8471952550669-Route-Terrain>
It doesn't provide a number so that different routers can be compared.
Just 3 levels of difficulty indicated by different colors:
"Swipe to the difficulty map to see the route’s polyline displayed as
a gradient of color based on the difficulty. Easier sections will be
green, moderate sections will be blue and hard sections will be
black."

I just tried it on both the PC and Android version and couldn't make
it work. I'll try again tomorrow.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I'm 110% positive in the past I have mentioned being in San Francisco. Work jobs. And I mentioned walking up the hills in San Francisco. In the evening after supper. We stayed at hotels downtown. The hills/streets with stairs in the sidewalks. I found that amazing. But all of those steep streets are one way only down the hill. Never two way and up the hill. Tommy, I have also driven across the Golden Gate Bridge and seen Alcatraz island. From the shore, did not take the boat ride out for the tour. Tommy, I have also been to Sacramento and Eureka. Driven across the Sierra Nevada mountains. Been in Los Angeles and San Diego too. And been through Death Valley. I would not be surprised if I have not been in more of California than you, a lifetime resident of California. Never made it over to Oakland though.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:27:40 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California. It finally took statements from the California Fish and Game and sighting directly where I said I had watched this to shut these asses up.
> California Fish and Game: Gray Wolf
> <https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf>
>
> Known Wolves in California
> <https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf#la-559682741-known-wolves-in-california>

Jeff, are you saying the State Government of California is calling Tommy a liar?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:27:40 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California. It finally took statements from the California Fish and Game and sighting directly where I said I had watched this to shut these asses up.
>> California Fish and Game: Gray Wolf
>> <https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf>
>>
>> Known Wolves in California
>> <https://wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf#la-559682741-known-wolves-in-california>

>Jeff, are you saying the State Government of California is calling Tommy a liar?

No. I'm agreeing with Tom. Yes, the California Dept of Fish and Game
web site indicates that there are wolves in California. I don't
understand what Tom meant by "directly", but I'll assume he provided
his critics with a direct link to the appropriate web site. The
incoherent 2nd sentence suggests numerous revisions to make it sound
believable, which makes me suspect that there was no confrontation, at
least not in a public forum:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22tom+kunich%22+wolf>
Nothing found.

I think this might be Tom's original wolf sighting from Apr 2022:
<https://narkive.com/E12qLQrf.16>
"When I reported I saw a wolf on Mt Hamilton which is adjacent to a
HUGE area that has almost no population, our pretend environmentalists
were standing in line to tell me I didn't see what I plainly saw."

I guess his persecutors, the environmentalists, have now been demoted
to "brain dead asses".

>> Me, on the night of the full moon (1997):
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/jeffl-wolf.gif>
>> <https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/werewolf.txt>

Being a werewolf does give me some credibility on the topic.

I found an article by Tom in the Google 50 plus cyclist group:
<https://sites.google.com/site/50pluscyclist/gallery9>
(near bottom of page)

"But since I have ALL of these really neat bikes I'm going to wallow
in elitism. I'll get them really dirty and let the decals on the Ti
bike get all beat up and then look down my nose at all of you lower
class people riding Schwinn Varsitys"

14 bicycles? Decals? Lower class? Now I understand why he wants so
many bicycles.

[John B.]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:26:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

It's rather pitiful, isn't it? When one's sole claim to fame is owning
14 dirty, old, bicycles.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 4:48:55 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California.

Who exactly said that, Tom? It certainly wasn't me.

Given your copious memory problems, such a declaration may have been all in your imagination.
To prove it was real, it would help if you would give links to the relevant posts, or at least accurate direct quotations.
Certainly, nobody here trusts your memory. Even you seem to know better than that!

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:49:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:26:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>I found an article by Tom in the Google 50 plus cyclist group:
>><https://sites.google.com/site/50pluscyclist/gallery9>
>>(near bottom of page)
>>
>>"But since I have ALL of these really neat bikes I'm going to wallow
>>in elitism. I'll get them really dirty and let the decals on the Ti
>>bike get all beat up and then look down my nose at all of you lower
>>class people riding Schwinn Varsitys"
>>
>>14 bicycles? Decals? Lower class? Now I understand why he wants so
>>many bicycles.

>It's rather pitiful, isn't it? When one's sole claim to fame is owning
>14 dirty, old, bicycles.

Pitiful? In my prime, I was able to only collect 5 bicycles. There's
one more bicycle missing from the photo:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/5bikes.JPG>
However, it didn't take my long to realize that I had created a
problem. Today, I'm down to two bicycles. Of the original 6, one was
sold. The others were given to college students and one friend.

I've never seen a photo with more than one of Tom's bicycles in one
place. Whenever Tom has a bicycle to sell, there are usually photos.
As I recall, the bicycles all seem to be very clean. Tom recently
mentioned that:
"In the last 12 months I have only done about 4500 miles..."
For 14 bicycles, that would be an average of 0.88 miles per bicycle
per day. If I had ridden my bicycle(s) less than a mile per day, they
would not have become very dirty.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 10:04:53 AM UTC-7, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 4:48:55 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California.
> Who exactly said that, Tom? It certainly wasn't me.

It must have been the evil environmentalists in RBT.
<https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/E12qLQrf/thursday-ride#post16>

"When I reported I saw a wolf on Mt Hamilton which is adjacent to a HUGE area that has almost no population, our pretend environmentalists were standing in line to tell me I didn't see what I plainly saw."

That was 6 months ago. The next critique of Tom sighting a wolf on Mt Hamilton will likely be attributed to the Democrats, liberals, eBike riders, fact checkers, ecologists, global warming activists, immigrants and other groups that have lost Tom's favor and support.

>Given your copious memory problems, such a declaration may have been all in your imagination.
>To prove it was real, it would help if you would give links to the relevant posts, or at least accurate direct quotations.
>Certainly, nobody here trusts your memory. Even you seem to know better than that!

Tom rarely provides URL's or substantiations. When he does, it typically doesn't say what he claimed or was from a politically right source. If you search RBT using Google Groups for "wolf" or "wolves", you'll find very few hits. Only one is attributable to you under the topic "Is Frank Crying Wolf?" which is unrelated to Tom sighting a wolf on Mt Hamilton:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=wolf+author%3AFrank+author%3AKrygowski>

[Sir Ridesalot]

With the fires in California and their seemingly close to Joerg's neck of the woods, I wonder how he's doing and if he's safe.

Hey Joerg, are you still around?

Cheers

[Jeff Liebermann]

I sure hope so. Try sending Joerg an email a phone call:
<https://www.analogconsultants.com>
Say hello from everyone in RBT.

Cameron Park in El Dorado County, CA.
The Mosquito Fire is burning in El Dorado County:
<https://www.edcgov.us/wildfire/Pages/Mosquito-Fire.aspx>
Looks good so far. I think he will be ok.

Cameron Park is shown on the maps in the south-west part of the
county, in the Ed Dorado Hills, near Hwy 50, and south-east of Folsom
Lake. My guess(tm) is 20 miles from the fire. It does NOT appear to
be in the evacuation zones. The fire is moving in the opposite
direction (toward the north-east).

Better fire map:
<https://eldoradocounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/ca1dcb9343b14baabf7c86842588cf94>

Evacuation map:
<https://eldoradocounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bfbfd933f4254a0db4bdbb2ebe866c10>

Watch Duty:
<https://app.watchduty.org/incident/1275#allow-back>

Google Maps:
<https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/7/viewer?mid=1sWVUTY50R-0MqZRtU2f80mlaTGj3fF0&ll=38.99910960782757%2C-120.71759999999999&z=11>
<https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8721411,-121.0366522,10.54z/data=!4m2!21m1!1s%2Fg%2F11tfdb_dst!5m1!1e8>
<https://goo.gl/maps/C4x514yWVyaG99rm7>

Inciweb:
<https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/8398/>

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:09:35 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 10:04:53 AM UTC-7, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 4:48:55 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California.
> > Who exactly said that, Tom? It certainly wasn't me.
> It must have been the evil environmentalists in RBT.
> <https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/E12qLQrf/thursday-ride#post16>
> "When I reported I saw a wolf on Mt Hamilton which is adjacent to a HUGE area that has almost no population, our pretend environmentalists were standing in line to tell me I didn't see what I plainly saw."
> That was 6 months ago. The next critique of Tom sighting a wolf on Mt Hamilton will likely be attributed to the Democrats, liberals, eBike riders, fact checkers, ecologists, global warming activists, immigrants and other groups that have lost Tom's favor and support.

"Lost Tom's favor and support" implies he once favored and supported said groups. I am very doubtful ever supported immigrants. He has constantly denigrated the supposed immigrants who install roofs in his neighborhood. I believe he even accused them of stealing his bike from a shed in his backyard. He believes they watched him put the bike in the shed when they were on the roof of the house across the street.

I find it slightly hypocritical of Tommy to lambast immigrants since he often times boasts about himself being an immigrant. From east Europe, Caucuses mountains, Mongol ancestors.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:21:34 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:09:35 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 10:04:53 AM UTC-7, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 4:48:55 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > While I was climbing Mt. Hamilton I watched a wolf running across the hillside and upon mentioning it these brain dead asses declared that there were no wolves in California.
>> > Who exactly said that, Tom? It certainly wasn't me.
>> It must have been the evil environmentalists in RBT.
>> <https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/E12qLQrf/thursday-ride#post16>
>> "When I reported I saw a wolf on Mt Hamilton which is adjacent to a HUGE area that has almost no population, our pretend environmentalists were standing in line to tell me I didn't see what I plainly saw."

>> That was 6 months ago. The next critique of Tom sighting a wolf on Mt Hamilton will likely be attributed to the Democrats, liberals, eBike riders, fact checkers, ecologists, global warming activists, immigrants and other groups that have lost Tom's favor and support.

Oops. I meant to label those groups as the groups which Tom finds
lacking in merit and which get blamed for everything that goes wrong
(scapegoats?). I selected "favor and support" which was a very bad
choice. Thanks for catching my mistake.

>"Lost Tom's favor and support" implies he once favored and supported said groups. I am very doubtful ever supported immigrants. He has constantly denigrated the supposed immigrants who install roofs in his neighborhood. I believe he even accused them of stealing his bike from a shed in his backyard. He believes they watched him put the bike in the shed when they were on the roof of the house across the street.

Chuckle. I remember that discussion.

When my parents emigrated from Germany after WWII and eventually
settled in Los Angeles (1954?), we landed in a very mixed nationality
neighborhood. Very few were born in the USA and nobody spoke proper
English. Of course, us kids formed gangs, according to the movie
template on how to be an American. The problem was that these gangs
were hardly along racial, nationalist, or language lines. It was just
a big mess of kids beating up on each other. The parents failed to
appreciate our innovation and preceded to reorganize our gangs into
something more closely resembling what they saw in the movies. I
don't recall exactly, but it took 5 to 10 years before we had our
first race riot and could celebrate becoming an American.

>I find it slightly hypocritical of Tommy to lambast immigrants
>since he often times boasts about himself being an immigrant. From
>east Europe, Caucuses mountains, Mongol ancestors.

Oh-oh. I might be related to Tom. I ran a DNA test in 2016(?). The
test declared that I had ancestors mostly from eastern Europe, but
also from China (Mongol?). I have reason to believe that there may
have been errors and am tempted to try again.

[William Crowell]

Joerg and I live about 10 miles apart, we are not near the evacuation area and the fire is moving in the other direction.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 12:42:45 AM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Oh-oh. I might be related to Tom. I ran a DNA test in 2016(?). The
> test declared that I had ancestors mostly from eastern Europe, but
> also from China (Mongol?). I have reason to believe that there may
> have been errors and am tempted to try again.

It may be worthwhile to just wait a bit and re-check the results. I know a guy who says
his ancestry "changed" after a year or so. I guess the company's data got updated.

But the territory of Poland did suffer many invasions - Mongols, Tartars, Swedes, etc. etc.
I'm not surprised that some of those invaders found ways of leaving genetic evidence.

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Which is why families of Ashkenazi refer to 'the old
country' without naming it. Bessarabia, Moldava, Rus,
Byelorussia and on and on.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 8:57:06 a.m. UTC-4, William Crowell wrote:
> Joerg and I live about 10 miles apart, we are not near the evacuation area and the fire is moving in the other direction.

Thank you very much for that reply. I'm glad that you are both safe and that the danger is moving away from you.

Cheers

[Jeff Liebermann]

True. My parents, relatives and friends always referred to Poland
without mentioning the name. There's a complex story behind that
habit.

Over the centuries, the name has changed many times and meant
different things to each cultural group or invader. At one time,
Poland was a major power in eastern Europe. At four times in the
past, it was partitioned between the neighboring states and ceased to
exist as an independent country:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland>
Using a politically incorrect name for the country was a very bad
idea. Using the former name for the country was considered a serious
crime. After the various partitions, if someone even mentioned
"Poland" or any of its previous names, they were considered to be a
nationalist revolutionary and were arrested for sedition. Therefore
everyone including the Jews, made it a habit of not using the name of
the old country lest they irritate the rulers. Note that "old" does
did not always mean the country from where they had emmigrated, but
more commonly meant the former name of the country.

"The Many Different Names of Poland"
<https://culture.pl/en/article/the-many-different-names-of-poland>